A Mormon and a Jewish Atheist Walked into a Pandemic...

And came out friends and allies

I thought I’d do something a little different with this post.

So what I’ve got going on this time is that me and my friend Justin Hart each answered the same five questions.

We “met” virtually at the beginning of covid because we both pushed back on the lockdowns. People who saw the madness were few and far between so it was easy to stumble across the approximately 6 or 7 of us that existed in the world in March 2020.

We both also wrote a book about all of it. Very different books. And you should definitely read them both!

Justin’s is called Gone Viral. Buy it here.

Mine is called Levi’s Unbuttoned - but you already know that. Hopefully you already got your copy but if not, you can buy it here.

Me, Justin, Daniel Kotzin (my husband) and Jenny Erikson (Justin’s wife) in San Diego

Without further ado, the five questions.

1 / How did you meet/come together to push back on the lockdowns?

Jennifer:

Justin and I “met” on Twitter. We found each other early on in the lockdowns as there weren’t very many speaking out on the inevitable, catastrophic harms that would be done with these inhumane policies. His voice stood out from the beginning – rational, forceful and unapologetic. I admired his courage from the get-go. Few were willing to challenge because if you did, you suffered the consequences – demonization, job/business loss, fractured family relationships and broken friendships. But he was willing to say: “This is wrong. People are being harmed.” He did the right thing, despite adverse impacts to his own career. I have tremendous admiration for him. He was a beacon of light during a very dark time. I’d add his wife (Jenny Erikson) is pretty awesome too! I consider them both dear friends and I’m so grateful to have found them in this whole mess. I wouldn’t have gotten through it all without them.

Justin:

I think Jennifer and I came together about 2 years ago. I noticed she was from San Francisco and I grew up in the Bay Area. I had done some business with Levi’s and I knew about her from some of my previous professional interactions. Then we started retweeting each other and before you knew it - we were in the trenches fighting back against California tyranny. She and her husband Daniel Kotzin were lucky to escape that chaos - and if my wife Jenny and I were in the Bay Area we would have vacated too! Thankfully (or sadly), San Diego is about 2/3rds as crazy as San Francisco - but there are pockets of freedom here that are almost non-existent up north. I think Jen and I both knew (from our shared background as marketing executives) that the winning avenue of success and persuasion was to focus a LOT on the impact of the pandemic policies on kids. Both of our families had young children - and so it was CRITICAL for us to fight back against the lockdowns. We both had a BIG stake in the outcomes. It also helps to have incredibly smart and supportive spouses who are 100% willing to go to bat for you and sacrifice their time and efforts to take a stand. I think Jen would agree that Dan and Jenny (my wife) throw bigger punches than either of us have! Do not mess with them! :)

2 / How do you reconcile your different beliefs to align on this issue?

Jennifer:

I learned early on that Justin is Mormon. I’m born Jewish and a committed atheist. You couldn’t find two people with more different backgrounds and beliefs. There is no part of me that seeks a religious framework to guide my decisions and treatment of others. But it doesn’t matter because Justin and I agree that people need to always be treated with empathy, kindness and respect for our common humanity. And we respect each other’s backgrounds and views. I think our friendship is a model for what we need right now – the ability to engage those we may disagree with on some matters, and still find common ground. I’ve learned so much from Justin and other people of faith in the past three years. I haven’t changed my beliefs, but I have great respect for his. He demonstrates unwavering kindness and respect for the dignity of others.

Justin:

Jennifer and I come from very different political backgrounds and experiences. Jennifer was a Democrat, I'm a life-long Republican. Jennifer is agnostic religiously (I think), I'm a devout Mormon. But it’s amazing how quickly bridges form across political spectrums when your kids are being threatened by the same powers that be. Nothing heals ideological divides faster than when your children are really suffering and you know that there is momentum in combining our efforts. Jennifer and I also have similar blended families. We both have older kids and so we have the unique experience of seeing the impact of our children in pre-school, grade-school, high school and college. We went to fight on all of these levels - in many ways our younger kids may fare better than our older kids. There’s time to repair the damage done to our younger children (fingers crossed) but our older kids can’t get back the experience lost of being an upperclassman or getting the first-best shot at the college of their choice. Lots of powerful life lessons and we’re still working out the impact.  Also, I think both of our families took a mighty leap of faith. I sacrificed any semblance of a big executive job for some time putting my neck on the line for a contrarian view of Covid and Jennifer straight up left her job and a decent exit package so she could speak freely. One other difference: Jennifer can do a full round-house flip in the air and I'm still trying to lose my Covid "19 pounds." 

3 / Why did you write a book?

Jennifer:

I wrote “Levi’s Unbuttoned: The Woke Mob Took My Job But Gave Me My Voice,” a memoir, as a call to others to use their voices. To stand up to injustice and lies, even when a vocal and punitive minority is willing to vilify you and call you terrible unemployable names – to cancel you for speaking the truth.

Justin:

I was asked to! I never thought anything I produced could be bound and delivered - but here we are. It almost didn’t happen. It was a crazy ride to get it published and do it in a way that could be palatable to numerous audiences. I wrote it for my wife Jenny and my 8 children - so they know I stood up for something. 

4 / What do you hope people take away from your book?

Jennifer:

My childhood was unusual – I was an elite gymnast and obedience was instilled in me as a requirement to be “successful.” But if I can overcome that upbringing, if I can push myself to speak up and say the thing that is true that others are unwilling to say, so can you. We’ve all got to screw up our courage in the face of the current censorship and illiberalism. Truth and democracy are on the line. I’m proud to stand with Justin in this fight.

Justin:

I designed my book “Gone Viral: How Covid Drove the World Insane” to be both accessible and moving. I didn’t want to get too technical (like we sometimes do online with charts and stats and details threads). I wanted to combine stories and data together in a way that hadn’t been done before. I hope people use the book as a shield and a weapon against the forces that took these years from their families and preemptively fight against the tactics which are sure to be used again. It’s a book for the people who have followed Jen and me this entire time but it’s also for those who are just starting their journey back from the darkness.

5a / Why do you recommend the Justin’s book?

Jennifer:

People are already beginning to forget and re-write the history of the last 3 unprecedented years. It’s so important to have a document that lays it all out, that records the tragedy of the mistake of lockdowns. He said it from the very beginning, he was right and we all need to listen to what he has to say. He “myth busts” every catastrophic decision, the faulty logic and propaganda and lies that these horrific policy decisions were based upon. And he needs to be heard. I’d encourage everyone to read the book as he lays it all out with clarity and precision and even a bit of humor, which we all need a little of right now.

5b/ Why do you recommend Jennifer’s book?

Justin:

Jennifer has pinpointed a nexus that no one else has dared touch - the intersection between America’s cowardice in the face of pandemic overreach and the frail brittle souls of many Americans who have made their corporate life a religion. America has lost its way for many. People have failed to find meaning in their families or their everyday lives and so they have turned their work life to anchor their belief systems. They then determined that their corporate entities MUST mirror, uphold and subsidize their belief systems - which is as near to a communist takeover as might ever see. It’s a one-sided venture and if a moral quandary appears to supersede their belief system - these same lost souls cannot allow their corporate religion to endorse those efforts.  In short, a rainbow of certitude was given to one set of beliefs but when it came to protecting children from the dregs of pandemic overreach - they would not lift a finger.